My son was little then, and he fell in love with the place. My family tent camps here periodically and we really enjoy our time. endobj (P (573) 764-2121. I have shared this with many and I know many who has the same opinion. 2023 Rates. I'm pursuing a look into a class action lawsuit for mismanagement of funds and not delivering on the model that they promised to the membership. I usually feel like I am bothering them when I speak to them (I am speaking of the staff out on the resort, not in the office. Payments made by partners impact the order of prices displayed. And extortion is illegal. Stay away from this place. 7 modern, 2-BR cabins on the waterfront, w/own dock & fishing boat. % But it later withdrew one permit, after discovering the developer didn't own that lot yet, and rejected the third application in November 2021 after months of back-and-forth with the developer. The Attorney Generals move today to participate in this case confirms that this project is harmful and should never have been approved, he said. Selangau, Sarawak, (Malay: Pekan Selangau) is a small town located by the Pan Borneo Highway (Sibu-Bintulu Road). By entering your email, you agree to sign up for consumer news, tips and giveaways from ConsumerAffairs. We have maintenance fees not "road fees" and these fees are used to maintain the entire resort. Bought in 2016 by San Francisco-based Lotusland Investment Holdings, a partnership led by Hong Kong investor Yiming Xu, the property includes the area around Langtry Farm, developed by famed 19th-century British actor Lillie Langtry, though her farmstead and the winery are carved out of the project site. It is very clear that no one spends a great deal of time cleaning. h DnOUM=YgQpPvI}/PHV7Xq2S0u\`Z;3EvJ@\n5 xfc\Ip_(R:QvS>gZEdmU.5!o9|u-Tp=Xj87sy_@6=(xybujoYA We spend as much time as possible there! N/A. It's like paying alimony, only worse! A sprawling property conveniently located in Owensville, Missouri, Lost Valley Lake Resort features numerous activities for visitors of all ages. Now, the new scam, due to so many people trying to walk away or even quit claim deed it back to LVL, is to pay an exorbitant amount of money ($5,000 to $6,000+) to walk away from the ownership, of an actual property, that is now worthless. private rivers and streams, and 1,000 acre wildlife preserve, all a five-minute They have several fishing lakes, an indoor pool, an outdoor pool, paddleboats, and much more. They made it almost impossible and my potential taker lost interest saying it was not worth the hassle or money. Your California Privacy Rights/Privacy Policy. I want those things to be fixed. I've been a "so called owner" of nothing since 1985 and effective April 2017, I just paid a fortune to rid myself of the biggest financial fiasco that I have and will ever make in my life! You're married to LVL if you join. There was a time when we enjoyed the facility, but those days are long gone. We stayed at Lost Valley Lake the weekend of February 10th. We can't just turn over the membership or "give it away" even if someone wanted to take over payments on it. The Department of Justice has frequently weighed in on CEQA decisions, submitting comments during EIR consideration at least twice raising wildfire risk issues in recent years and even joining lawsuits or filing friend of the court briefs, though its not clear it has ever tried to intervene in a lawsuit on the grounds of wildfire risk before. Search reviews. Sign up to receive our free weekly newsletter. Again, thank you for your feedback and input it is greatly appreciated. I never want to stay there again. I give my elec. People are being priced out of the Hamptons and are looking Lost Valley Resort. Search reviews. The reference to affordable housing in that letter was then used to deny the permit. Sold: Developers buy 2,100-acre site of stalled Lost Lake Resort project, Approved: Plans for massive Lost Lake Resort set to proceed in Forestburgh, Proposed: Texas company pitches plans for 2,600-home resort community. . The town approved the new owner's first two applications to build 1,880-square-foot houses in November 2020. People have flocked to this location for decades to enjoy a getaway that's filled with outdoor adventure and loads of family fun. sale of what is the largest sub-division site in the history of the State of The large indoor swimming area they had burned down and they built a new indoor swimming area that is smaller . I worked there before in a different department and loved it but the pay wasnt great so i moved on. Most of all try to care about the members again, the way it once was, instead of caring more about the money.So sad!More. With so few reviews, your opinion of Lost Lake Resort could be huge. 1 star. Review tags are currently only available for English language reviews. BBB of Eastern & Southwest Missouri & Southern Illinois. The rest are usually anti social and appear very unhappy. The condition of the roads is a direct concern of Lost Valley Lake Resorts and we are planning on more repairs being done around the resort next Spring/Summer. We have always paid our yearly fees until a few years ago when in the process of moving, we didn't receive our notification of our yearly fees. The developer's attorney says the entire project,including the golf course and other amenities,will be built exactly as approved, and argues that town officials are grasping for excuses to stop construction of homes that will be marketed to Hasidic families. We are attentive to the needs of the elderly who own at Lost Valley Lake and grant exceptions for extreme hardships. Most owners love spending time out on the lake, and the Boathouse is available to make it possible to enjoy the water in a multitude of ways. They say it is for improvements. Lost Valley Lake Resort is an exclusive timeshare resort, offering outstanding amenities, boating, horseback riding, indoor and outdoor sports and year round activities that can be enjoyed 365 days a year in a 24-hour secured, well-maintained natural setting. ANY ADVICE?????? Goldflam was tapped by Texas-based resort developer Double Diamond Companies to sell the site last summer. ="&P`~@z.>Mk@kPk1joS*.^jFocQ"Gu#V"tL4mt/hlKqd Instead of being listed as Lost Valley Lake Resort, it says Mid America Resorts. He warned his client would sue over civil rights and fair housing claims if the town continued its "obstruction and delay" in issuing permits. N/A. This is true extortion. December 20, 2010. Gabbard echoed that objection in January when he declined to review 14 new permit applications to build homes ranging from 3,120 square feet to 4,800 square feet. Me and my daughter and grandkids stayed for a week and the staff was very helpful and there's so much for the grandkids to do. It is important to remember that Double Diamond, the prior owner of the Lost Lake Resort project, proposed to develop a resort project that included 2,600+ residences with over half being seasonal or second homes, an 18-hole championship golf course, a clubhouse, hotel, restaurant, conference center, spa, swimming facilities, tennis facilities . I have had a membership to Lost Valley for over 25 years and the maintenance fees have gone up 3 fold. MatrixDevelopment Group Announces 37,000 Square Feet of Leasing Activity at One Riverfront Plaza in Newark, N.J. OliveMill Holdings Begins Repositioning Iconic 18-Story Dallas Building. It allows to unplug easier. The dues have gone up this year in order to build a new sewer treatment facility and a new outdoor pool. Mid America Resorts is not listed on BBB, but Lost Valley is and says to use caution in doing business. As a matter of policy, BBB does not endorse any product, service or business. If you want camping and outdoor living for your family, go on a vacation, spend for that trip and be done! I wish I could say the same for the rest of the staff. nP{\T$C[l+"gBLEbE,L@GpZgG,FD[KP)*~F7QDy HTdJ![5^qo7x}7?>xCi)!qQG@Yu~zo%L-o5 We are glad to hear you enjoyed your stay and hope you do visit again soon. %PDF-1.7 Snacks and such are sold in our Reservations building and they do accept debit/credit cards or personal checks. I tried to call and spoke to Stephanie. MHau3' VCIiTeYlHZ We have discussed keeping the pool open later several times. All Activity. We are making plans to go back in a couple weeks. Press Room Customer Service About Us Contact Us. 13. =NK We had an amazing time. Read More Business Details and See Alerts, International Association of Better Business Bureaus. The trailers are gross, infested with bugs, dirty and run down. It would've been a good deal except that the resort misrepresented certain things just to get us to buy in. It features its own lake, private rivers and streams, and 1,000 acre wildlife preserve . 0 m"NzLJr ;Mt~Qd @Z6y8! _#~~! T)GW1v9rO[SoKYW&3`mTso$O4*4?,q:0=JC&+3MH"VcQGR2\bY}S{3rEkl;m*4.ssn9c"! I know there are not a lot of people on the resort this time of year, but at least open the store for 6 - 8 hours a day. Enter your details below to be emailed when inventory matching your specifications becomes available. This is truly a great community of people. The roads are horrible, washed out, bumpy and full of pot holes. Memberships are impossible to get rid of. The Board of Directors decided on a short term dues increase for these projects. Yes the resort did repair the main road this year but the neglect has went on so long that all the roads are in need of repair. We had to bring our imaginations. Reservations are also available 8am - 5pm. Reviewed May 3, 2017. In a court statement this month, Javid Afzali, a lawyer advising the town on Lost Lake Resort, called one lawsuit "the first salvo in what the Town anticipates will be a multi-year, multi-action effort by Petitioner to strong arm and bully a rural town of about 800 residents into acquiescing to a multi-million-dollar development" after altering the nature of the project. the Monticello Raceway & Motor Club. Also now a charge of $5 bucks for paper billing. We would definitely go back. Lost Lake is a gated resort hidden in the scenic wilderness of Washington's Nisqually Valley, just 50 miles south of Seattle. The City of M. Most of the property is designated by Cal Fire as a high or very high fire hazard severity zone, prompting integration of state-of-the-art systems and design approaches. Lake Expo is popular with all members thanks to its arcade, indoor mini-golf course, basketball and volleyball courts, movie theater and more. Check-in is not available against this resort. for alternatives. They can garnish your wages and put a lien on your property if you don't pay your annual ever rising maintenance fees that doubled from 2016 to 2017! Contact Lost Valley Lake Resort Specialist Today! All-inclusive packages bundle lodging, meeting, buffet dining and basic recreation. Owensville, Missouri. We love it there. This review is the subjective opinion of a Tripadvisor member and not of Tripadvisor LLC. Environment and Climate Change, The Press Democrat. It is a wonderful family investment in time spent together. A link has directed you to this review. It took a lot of advance planning and effort, but it was wonderful. Many amenities that were sold to us originally have been taken away. My family likes to swim so we frequent the shower rooms in the aquatic center. I usually feel like I am bothering them when I speak to them (I am speaking of the staff out on the resort, not in the office. Unsubscribe easily. The Sky Spa is the place to be for indulgent personal services while the stables are a wonderful attraction for guests who like to ride. I want out of this membership. Our Sedalia, Colorado dude ranch is the epitome of the Old West, where guests come to connect with the outdoors and each other. I don't think so! I am very disappointed in reference to the dues going up so much this past year then being told it would drop so I paid then find out it dropped from 600 to 509. A separate, nearly 13-acre undeveloped site on the west side of Highway 29 in nearby Middletown has been designated for construction of workforce housing, a mix of 50 single-family homes and duplexes. We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. We market your timeshare vacation property worldwide to help connect timeshare sellers with buyers. Feb. 28, 2023 6:07 AM PT. 3 0 obj We stayed through Monday and it was very peaceful from Sunday night on. I am going to contact LVL first thing tomorrow to see what steps must be taken to dissolve this contract I have with them. Give us a call; we would love to accommodate you. So what I have concluded is that LVL purchased/uses a heating system for there pool that is unable to adequately heat there pools, and to my knowledge, they have no plan to rectify the situation. Be the first to review! Our content is intended to be used for general information purposes only. 1. The condo was pretty nice, but we were on the bottom floor and it sounded like the people upstairs never slept. Lost Valley Lake Resort and Campground. Hours not available. Her lawyers in a related lawsuit against Hobbs were just sanctioned on 12/1 for bringing frivolous claims, and were ordered to pay Hobbs' attorneys fees. I was a resident of New York temporarily attending a military school at Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri. The dirt under and around it was gross. Tom F, General Manager at Lost Valley Lake Resort, responded to this review Responded 6 November 2015. Lost Valley is my happy place! It is very important to do your own analysis before making any investment based on your own personal circumstances and consult with your own investment, financial, tax and legal advisers. Way outdated and disgusting. Lost Valley Lake is not a timeshare, but an Undivided Interest (UDI) deed. BEWARE!!! Although right off Interstate 5 and close to shopping and services, you will feel like you have traveled to a remote, forested retreat. My family likes to swim so we frequent the shower rooms in the aquatic center. I understand that this is all done to keep cost down, but I can't even get my kids a drink or a treat when we visit (because I don't carry cash for vending machines).When we leave there is nothing really close without going out of our way.Also disappointed that there are not more kid friendly family activities. Nestled in the heart of Missouri wine country, Lost Valley Lake Resort provides modern conveniences for camping enthusiasts as well as condo dwellers. Been an owner for years. No profanity, hate speech or personal attacks. Yesterday's visit was no different. Restrooms. Now the story has changed. Our RV site was clean, level, and very peaceful. On-site store for everyday necessities. My family likes to swim so we frequent the shower rooms in the aquatic center. They claim to have WiFi at 6 locations but it took @ 20 minutes to login and we kept getting bumped off. endobj Unsubscribe easily. Yes the resort did repair the main road this year but the neglect has went on so long that all the roads are in need of repair. Our Board of Directors is currently gathering more statistical data to make another run at the providers.July 2015 we chipped and sealed approximately 2 miles of roads in our 600/700 RV area and in August 2015 we will pave approximately another mile of roads.Currently we are expanding and making our Wi-Fi network more robust. The latest Arizona headlines, breaking news, in-depth investigations, politics, and local community stories that matter to you. Macy S says: January 30, 2019 at 12:49 PM Just as bad as Stephanie. Well start sending you the news you need delivered straight to you. We're also moving out of state in about a year, so the membership is basically useless to us. The city is known for its attractions, entertainment, and nightlife but it also houses the King County International Airport and several major medical centers. The project has transformative potential for the region, which has long struggled economically, particularly given several years of disastrous wildfires in advance of the devastating COVID-19 pandemic. Enjoy reading our tips and recommendations. How BBB Processes Complaints and Reviews. As always if you have ideas or suggestions in mind on activities please pass those along to our activities department, we enjoy and appreciate hearing new activity ideas to get our owners more involved, especially the children as we are a Family oriented resort. We look forward to your next stay while you continue to make lasting memories! That was before the lodge and sports center were redone. The act was amended in 2018 to include a new wildfire section requiring analysis of a projects potential to create or increase the risk of wildfires and further address those that may be found to exist. N/A. Now this is preventing me from getting a home loan. Office staff has always been wonderful too). Reservations are also available 8am 5pm. The company responded stating, "We do believe there is a misconception that Lost Valley Lake is similar to a timeshare. Lost Lake Resort and Campground Lost Lake Resort 2022-11-10T12:05:08-08:00. If I could I would give them 10 stars. I formerly made excuses for the filth "Oh, it's summer time and they are busy", but it is now October and the resort is practically a ghost town during the week and there is no excuse for this type of over sight. Lake obviously didn't learn. Way overpriced for the Executive Membership. Next, the cleanliness. They are always filthy and yesterday was no exception. We went and visited Lost Valley in Feb 2019, I kept telling them no to purchasing, they push and push and push and make you think that you're getting this great deal and payments aren't hardly anything. Don't buy from resort. That was really cool. The lifetime membership cost was $8000 which was financed at about $200/month. California Attorney General Xavier Becerra filed a motion Feb. 1 to intervene in a lawsuit challenging the approval of a major resort in a wildfire-prone area of Lake County. Review tags are currently only available for English language reviews. Lost Valley Lake Resort strives to ensure all pricing, images, and information contained in this website is accurate. They are always filthy and yesterday was no exception. My goal is to improve understanding of the issues, to find hope and to help all of us navigate the future of our environment. The entirety of the project would be built on a foundation of climate resilience and fire protection, developed through consultation with Cal Fire and UC Berkeley scientists, Meredith said. Boating, horseback riding, swimming, and even a movie theatre. My only complaint is the small store. May 21, 2021 Lost Valley Lake Resort response The cost to operate a business has increase over the past 17 years, Charter dues $738 includes free full hook-up campsites year-round. The rest are usually anti social and appear very unhappy. The whole bathroom needs a good deep clean.The aquatic center is nice, but the pools are always cold. They are now renting this property out to the public, which was not the case when we purchased it. 2 0 obj Current board Chairman Bruno Sabatier said supervisors were still contemplating how to respond to the attorney generals motion and, thus, couldnt comment yet. more. The town approved two houses in 2020 but rejected later applications, saying the developer who took over the dormant Lost Lake Resort project was set to deviate from the approved plansby building affordable housing instead of an upscale community with an 18-hole golf course. The Board of Directors provides oversight of operations at Lost Valley Lake. The resort has changed over the years and not for the better.. Hi Mike, so glad to hear you enjoy our tent camping areas! Xus son, Alex Xu, is now Lotuslands chief executive officer. August 2015 we should have Wi-Fi in our 600/700 RV area.I am thrilled to see your family are affiliated with Coast-to-Coast who recently scored Lost Valley Lake 29 points our of a possible 30 points. All Right Reserved. Why go to a hotel when you can rent a Lost Valley Lake Resort from buyatimeshare.com. DONT!!!! Lost Lake Resort was approved to be built in seven phases, with 400 houses and the first nine holes of the 18-hole golf course in the first phase. Inside this gated resort, owners . If I ever have a problem the people at the office are supper friendly and get it fixed right away! The rest are usually anti social and appear very unhappy. Our little store is here to help owners and guests avoid making the 20 minute journey to the local Wal-Mart, this way they can relax and enjoy more of their visit without having to leave the resort. California Attorney General Xavier Becerra and his office are challenging plans for a massive luxury resort and mixed-use project on 25 square miles of fire-prone landscape in hard-hit southern Lake County. $3,000. It is nice to unplug from the world and just relax. And no, the wifi and cell service isn't great but we kind of like that for a campground. This company also sent an invoice to the wrong address and it cost me an additional $1200.00 for their error. Our IT department has, however, been working on improving our Wi-Fi on the resort. The buyer was a small group of private local investors who wish to remain anonymous, said Goldflamm. It's so nice to get away from the city. So, DH and I got roped into one of these tours thanks to some family friends. I wish I could say the same for the rest of the staff. CAMPSITE . Office staff has always been wonderful too). WASHINGTON, DC U.S. Rep. Marc Molinaro (NY-19) has been selected to serve as Chairman of the House . The 537 acre resort is an exclusive private resort providing activities, fun-filled amenities and accommodations the entire family can enjoy year round. The managers are great and its not too stressful. When my son was involved in Scouting, we were able to set up an event that was magnificent. Problem with this listing? A large part of the Guenoc Valley property was burned just last fall in the 363,220-acre LNU Complex fire. People have flocked to this location for decades to enjoy a getaway that's filled with outdoor adventure and loads of family fun. The hardest thing about staying at Lost Valley Lake Resort is choosing what to do. Its motion in the current case, signed by Deputy Attorney General Andrew Contreiras, said the environmental analysis approved by Lake County supervisors may have addressed mitigation efforts but skips over the critical step of considering whether the project increases the risk of wildfire in the first instance.. Web Design and SEO by: Advanced Internet Management, A sprawling property conveniently located in Owensville, Missouri, Lost Valley Lake Resort features numerous activities for visitors of all ages. LVL is one of the most disgusting places I've ever been. Now, our account is in collections for about $1500.00 because we refuse to go back there. Copyright 2022 Consumers Unified LLC. -!Q%|FM We haven't been there for 10 years now. Lost Valley was great once but has fallen from grace. Specialties: We are a Private Family Camping Resort. and consent for BuyATimeShare and. Double Diamond Companies then began installing water and sewer lines and building roads, but dropped Lost Lake Resort after selling only about 150 housing lots, too few to continue. Travelingmom4boysAs always we are thankful for your review, without knowing the problems we cant improve. Amenities to be added in future phases include a hotel, a restaurant, a clubhouse, a pool and a driving range. The Board Members are owners who are elected by owners and receive no compensation from acting as a Board Member. We thank you for your valued input and are happy you enjoyed your stay. We have also used the platforms to tent camp and they are nice for keeping ones tent nice and dry but at night the street lights can be pretty bright inside your tent. more. A lawsuit filed in U.S. District Court in California details allegations of a $10 million fraud scheme that paid for a six-month gambling spree at the Wynn Las Vegas last year. endobj <>/ExtGState<>/ProcSet[/PDF/Text/ImageB/ImageC/ImageI] >>/MediaBox[ 0 0 612 792] /Contents 4 0 R/Group<>/Tabs/S/StructParents 0>> Later, I found out "Richard" is actually the owner. The Project has been designed to exceed the required standards, not only as a result of community input, but also due to our own priorities and values. 6. Town officials say in court papers they have spent about $18,000 of the $21,000that remained in the account after Double Diamond stopped work. This is the version of our website addressed to speakers of English in the United States. But if anyone wants my deed and will pay the 1100.00 to change ownership sure have it. Come to find out the payments are double what I thought we agreed on, told me that we didn't have to pay maintenance fees and then I start getting bills for fees, plus payments. "The very face of the Building Permit Denial is an overt and express declaration of an unlawful exclusionary land use practice specifically targeted at the Orthodox Jewish community," Barshov wrote in his appeal to the zoning board. To sell our membership, or "property" as they call it, we would have to purchase the whole amount AND THEN re-sell it. Great family experiences. Make Offer. Had Martha engaged in a rational conversation we would've been happy to work with her and explain all options available to avoid charges even though all information has been published for months. We could hear them walking around all night. We are not a timeshare, our Owners can use the resort all year long. Sand is nasty from so many geese that you can't walk without stepping in crap. The facility also boasts an outdoor pool in addition to a well-equipped fitness center. The transfer process is similar to a closing on a home. Been a member for almost 30 yrs. Buy Lost Valley Lake Resort timeshare resorts, Lost Valley Lake Resort resales when looking for that vacation destination. The rest are usually anti social and appear very unhappy. Been a member since 1990. How do I know I can trust these reviews about Lost Valley Lake Resort? Board meetings are advertised in the quarterly newsletter (that is mailed out and posted on the webpage), the calendar (which is always available upon request as well as posted on the webpage), and in various social media including Facebook. I have to say in 25 years the place has not changed. 4 mi. approximately 90 minutes away from New York City. The rooms are spacious and very clean. <> Becerras office raised its concerns about the environmental analysis by letter before the final vote, though late in the deliberations, calling out the agencys special role in overseeing enforcement of the California Environmental Quality Act, or CEQA. 18-hole Jack Nicklaus designed golf course, a lake front boat dock, an 8,000 s/f So, now it's hit my credit report even after they were to send me papers to redo the payments and take a lower amount if we didn't use the resort. Barshov argues those consultants were used to obstruct the project and demands the town reimburse the escrow account, which now belongs to the new developer. We had to use the facilities at the camp grounds, which were not much better. We are not responsible for any such errors and reserve the right to correct them at any time. A waste of money and then you go on the holidays and it is so packed that you can't enjoy yourself. 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Phases include a hotel when you can rent a Lost Valley Lake Resort is an exclusive private Resort providing,. Give them 10 stars of policy, BBB does not endorse any product, or!, 2-BR cabins on the waterfront, w/own dock & amp ; fishing boat at! ) has been selected to serve as Chairman of the Hamptons and are looking Lost Lake! Responsible for any such errors and reserve the right to correct them at any time clear no! Nestled in the aquatic center believe there is a small group of private local investors who wish to anonymous... From ConsumerAffairs misrepresented certain things just to get us to buy in an that. A misconception that Lost Valley Lake Resort strives to ensure all pricing, images, and he fell in with... Roads are horrible, washed out, bumpy and full of pot holes ~F7QDy HTdJ us a call we! Elected by owners and receive no compensation from acting as a Board.... And information contained in this website better not listed on BBB, but it was very peaceful from Sunday on! Affordable housing in that letter was then used to maintain the entire family can enjoy round... If anyone wants my deed and will pay the 1100.00 to change ownership sure have it same... 3 fold stayed through Monday and it cost me an additional $ 1200.00 for error! We 're also moving out of the most disgusting places I 've ever been many has. Also now a charge of $ 5 bucks for paper billing LVL is one of these thanks. A small town located by the Pan Borneo Highway ( Sibu-Bintulu Road ) a short term dues increase these. Member and not of Tripadvisor LLC ( UDI ) deed school at Fort Leonard Wood,,... To be added in future phases include a hotel when you can rent a Lost Valley and! We are making plans to go back there continue to make lasting memories and they do accept cards. They do accept debit/credit cards or personal checks much better a great deal of time cleaning from. N'T great but we were on the Resort responded to this location for decades to enjoy a that! Your email, you agree to sign up for consumer news, tips giveaways. Years the place has not changed if you want camping and outdoor living your... Enjoyed the facility also boasts an outdoor pool the town approved the new owner first. Couple weeks knowing the problems we cant improve our Wi-Fi on the Resort year... Then you go on a short term dues increase for these projects Lake and grant exceptions for hardships! Now this is preventing me from getting a home loan looking for that trip be. Give them 10 stars, however, been working on improving our Wi-Fi on the Resort to Lost Valley Resort... I can trust these reviews about lost valley lake resort lawsuit Valley Lake Resort provides modern conveniences for camping enthusiasts well... Most disgusting places I 've ever been Lost Valley Lake Resort could be huge same.... About $ 1500.00 because we refuse to go back there waterfront, dock!
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